| Interview avec TKV DESIKACHAR | |
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INDE - 20 JANVIER, 2001
A. There is only one definition of yoga. Yoga is a process of self discipline, to get the best out of what we have and to give this to everyone. What we have is often not known. One problem is that we do not know our own resource. Yoga process opens us to this possibility. We have something more than we thought we knew. That is the source, it is within us. That's why we call yoga a mirror. The optimal goal for a yogi is to reach sustained happiness and to share it with others. Yoga is a happy process. Q. If it is a happy process, why so many yoga practitioners take is very, if not too much, seriously? A. Like everything in life, we can see things differently. Sometimes we confuse things. Like the first time I went to America. I thought that every American was a multi-millionaire so I looked at America as a country with no poverty. So we have ideas but the truth is different from the ideas. We have a Sanskrit word called "ananda". You know all the swamijis are called ananda: Swami Vishnu Devananda, Satchitananda, Sativananda, Primananda, Sivanananda. Why this word "ananda"? That is the sustain happiness, which is not restricted which has no limit. Q. Yoga has been taught and practised for thousands years in India. It is part of Indian culture. Could you tell us more about the reasons why people practised yoga in the past ? A. Every person, whether it is a Buddhist or a Hindu or else, is searching for some happiness. I said yoga is a process. In India we have always believed that the process of yoga helps the person to discover what is within the person because we are conditioned to look out, from the day we are born. From the day one, we are looking out for some external happiness, we have forgotten to discover something within us. What makes me to look out, there is an energy inside. We have to bring a discipline so that we change the direction of looking out. We have to search something within us, the source. That require some discipline. Yoga is an essential discipline that helps this process, that is why in Indian schools, Yoga was a part of this discipline in the past. In some form or other (practise, rituals, meditation) yoga is included, the discipline of yoga is given to us when we are young. In India, even at the very tender age of seven or eight, practices like asana, pranayama and meditation are formally taught, even though now, many people don't practice. Q. What is the relevance of doing yoga today in the modern times, in that era of communication and globalisation? Why can't people find happiness in the abundance and luxury of materialism ? A. Please introduce me sir, only one person who is really happy with the material abundance. I am looking for two persons in my life, one is a real Brahmin, who has understood the realities of life, the other is a person who is really happy with a trillion dollar in his bank account. My father said that the best symbol of happiness is, how a person can sleep peacefully without any medication and get up fresh in the morning. There is a deep meaning in this. Today one can't sleep without a mobile phone. Today though, there is a search that has begun in the '60 and '70. Again and again people are looking for sustained happiness, not only for temporary relief. That is why the book from Dalai Lama, "The art of happiness" has become so popular. Why do people read if they are so happy? Q. You are the son and student of Professor T. Krishnamacharya. Until his last day, you have lived with your father and he has transmitted to you a part of his vast knowledge. Can you tell us more precisely who is T.Krishnamacharya ? A. T. Krishnamacharya is my father and I became his student in 1961. I am more his student than his son, because I have not really been a good son. Without disrespect to anybody, I will quote my son Kausthub, " Having searched every where, yoga is Krishnamacharya." The ancient wisdom that the Vedas gave, is Krishnamacharya. The healing process that works for people with no other hope is Krishnamacharya. The ancient culture that brought so much beauty to our country India, is Krishnamacharya. Somebody who could smile because he was happy is Krishnamacharya. He was not called Krishnamacharya Ananda - he was Krishnamacharya - but there was "ananda" in him. That Krishnamacharya is still present, his spirit or his impression is. That Krishnamacharya will never die, his body is gone but not the spirit. Q. In a certain sense Professor T. Krishnamacharya is renowned as a reformer of modern yoga. Could you tell us what are the main particularities of T. Krishnamacharya's yoga ? A. Very simple sir, in the ancient time, I would go to a tailor that would take my measurements, what are the size of my arms, my waist and my chest, my ankles and all that, and he would make trousers exactly to my size. This is something that my father brought back, I would not say that he reformed yoga, that is unfair to great lineage to say that he did it, he brought back this ancient wisdom that a person that is doing yoga cannot be forgotten when something as precious as yoga is offered. Yoga has to be created to suit the person. This is an old teaching. This is what the ancestor have said. This is an old teaching of the yoga sutra of Patanjali, but somehow, thing have become mechanical. He brought life to yoga. So that a person like my grand mother who was blind or, a mentally retarded person could experience this. Nobody could say, this is not for me. I would say that this is his main contribution. You know today there are so many types of pizza, different sizes and types, different toppings adapted to the taste of every one. Today even in the commercial world, the individual merits attention. The word "car" is universal, but "my car" is different. This adaptation principle is very important. Take the example of the Mandiram. Who is going to teach a person is of utmost importance. Q. Would you qualify you father's yoga as a type of yoga like Hatha Yoga, Kundalini Yoga, Yoga this, Yoga that? A. Consider this example. There was an elephant and there were a few blind people. Somebody then held the trunk and said, Oh! the elephant is like a ladder. Somebody held the leg of the elephant and said, Oh! this is a pillar. Somebody held the tail and said: Oh! this is a brush. Krishnamacharya has eyes and he said, this is an elephant. This elephant has a trunk, it has four legs, it has a huge body, he has got large ears and small eyes. He saw the whole thing. Q. One can say that you have " accepted the mission " of transmitting yoga for the benefit of every practitioners in India and also around the world. In that sense, how do you see your role today as a senior yoga teacher and messenger ? A. I have received something precious from a great teacher, and also enormous good will from people like all of you, so as long as I am healthy I would like to contribute so that you people will teach as well as my father gave me. That's all. My father said very simply, whatever you teach you must be an example. If you are teaching a pregnant women, you must visualise that you are a pregnant woman. You must feel that your are pregnant and according to that you must teach the person. If there is somebody suffering, you must visualise their suffering, identify the suffering and find a solution so that you are cured. What would you do if you had their suffering. Same thing you must do for the other person. The attributes required to be or become a yoga teacher are simple. Do not make the mistakes of the senior teachers like me. You young people have the enormous responsibility of identifying the mistakes of us because we take many things for granted. You have to rectify those things. This is why I say, you must correct our mistakes. Q. You mentioned that yoga is a search for sustained happiness. Does this search for happiness have to be a complicated process? A. I am sure that you know that it is better to put new wine in new bottles. It is much more interesting and hopefully reachable to all the other people. If you are very clear that you do not want to wear a new shirt and behave in the old way, life is very simple. If you find that the existing process are too complicated and try to see if you can go more directly to happiness. It is a self discipline, you do not want to repeat the same mistakes. You have to be very careful in the beginning so you are not in the same old cloths. This is why we need a reference, I was lucky to have the reference of my teacher, I could see him every day so I could avoid some mistakes that I was vulnerable to. In India our teacher is always near. In the West you have a double responsibility because your are far and the commercial system is very strong, you are also very independent people. Unlike us, we are a little bit slaves of gurus. Happiness is not a copyright of any country, it is a neutral gender. Happiness is also found in animal. Taking care of an animal can bring a lot of happiness. How you find your happiness is different from how we find our happiness. This is what I learned from my father, that my shirt may not fit some other person. A person has to find her shirt and I have to find mine. I think we have the mean to do that if only we are a little bit attentive. Another thing that we may be very careful of is, what works for me may not work for everybody. Q. What is the ideal relationship to be between a teacher and a student? A. In today's context. Any relationship should first be a trial relationship. You should first try and if it works, you could make it a provisional relationship. When the provisional relationship works you can go to the next step which is a more committed relationship. There are at least three steps. Kausthub: Since you are talking about the relationship and these three stages. What is the focus of the relationship in the trial stage, what is the focus when it is a committed relationship, Is it more of faith or questioning? In the beginning, the relationship is sometime very emotional. I am relating with A because I have failed with B. I am relating with A because he is very attractive or very well known.. The first step of trial relationship, we must recognise, is based on ideas. How much these ideas are real or consistent with the facts, we need to check with the trial relationship. We have to destroy the image she or he has about the other person. Then some realities appear and you feel that there is some honesty about the relationship. Then appear a provision relationship where you have to check the compatibility at the intellectual level, at the character level, certain values must be questioned. If that works, there is something that happened which is called mutual trust, mutual honesty, care. Questioning must still be there, but how I ask the question of from where I ask the question will change. I have asked questions to my father until the very last month before he died, there is nothing wrong. Kausthub: You are then saying that a teacher student' s relationship is not a quick fix arrangement. Are you saying that from both side, the teacher and the student, we have to be very patient? I am saying, don't take any relationship for granted. A student should never take a teacher for granted, he should be even more careful that the teacher. Any lost for a teacher is less significant, but the student is searching for a new life. Dr Latha: The process of establishing relationship does not look to me as linear as you mentioned. Even at the committed level of relationship, isn't there a process where one has to check every now and then? Let say that I am married for 30 years. I cannot say that everything that I think about is the same as my wife. There is a lot of difference between the two of us. We agree to differ but we are together. We are looking for a relationship where there is place for identity but there is also reasonable respect for the other. There is honesty, there is no tension. This is why I talked about the three stages, but we never know what will happen in life. I agree. Is it a relationship between two images, or is this a relationship between two persons? In the beginning it is image, then is "comme-çi, comme-ça", a little bit of this and that. But anything can happen in life. This is why there is the idea of Ishavara Pranidhana. One should be open to any possibility. Kausthub: You mention an important thing that in a relationship we should not be looking for an identity. Sometimes in yoga, the student want to become identical to the teacher, wearing the same cloths, doing the same thing or becoming vegetarian etc, in this statement that you've made, it include the idea that the student should not try to do exactly what the teachers is doing. The job of the teacher is not to make the student do what he is himself doing, but to do something else, something which the student has to do. A. A teacher should not be a Xerox machine. The Yoga Sutra talks about what is called Nirmana. There is a potential in someone, which is dormant, the teacher's job is to wake that potential so it grows. It is not that the student has to become like the teacher. The student has to find his own identity. Yoga is like water or sun. It is the same application to every seeds but every seeds will grow differently. This is why the methodology of communication, the teaching, should be according to the seed, because some seeds require certain type of water. Some requires more, some less. The methodology must respect the potential of the student. Yoga is not cloning, we don not want to clone.
A. The most important thing in this 25 five years, is that we have now a good team, good people that are really dedicated and able to teach reasonably. It is a big achievement. Secondly there is an enormous awareness about the value of yoga in India and in South India.. We hope slowly that we will also have the same calibre of teachers in other parts of the world, that is only a question if time. When I started to be a yoga teacher, it was a disgrace to be a yoga teacher. It was a shame to be a yoga teacher, we hardly used to get students to take up lessons. Now, we hardly cope with the demand. In Madras now, there is so many yoga school. When my father Krishnamacharya was teaching, there was only one or two. The awareness, acceptability and respectability to yoga has come. I hope we have paid a small contribution to that, we hope, we don't know. We are proud to have a team of very dedicated persons who have given up their own person, their profession , to serve this institution. They feel that yoga is what they must do. It is a very important step for the Mandiram. I started the Mandiram as a non profit organisation with only 2000 rupees. Peoples said "You are a fool". I did not look at the 2000 rupees, I was looking at a team. I was very clear about my priorities, a good team of teachers, no land, no investment. We gave everything to have good teachers, and today we can say that we have a lot of reasonably committed teachers and it is increasing. Our institution is not a piece of land, it is the work of the great team of teachers. If they can continue to express the same quality of teaching, which I am very confident… It is like a Banyan tree, it is still growing. Thank you very much for this interview.
Interviewed by Isabelle Leblanc & Daniel Pineault Madras, 20th of January 2001
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